October 29, 2010 at 5:06pm
I do not agree with any of your opinion as it is based solely on your Christian perspective...
I say this with the utmost respect as I am not attempting to denounce Faith in any way.
My conviction is based on basic freedoms in a secular society. I do not wish any religion to dictate the terms of the day to day operations of the Government and its People.
"Both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together," James Madison said this. One of the founding Fathers of this country and Constitutional Framer....
The constitution does not mention God other than in the date. (Year of our Lord.)
The First Amendment protects freedom of religion.
Following your objective removes that very sacred trust.
Practice your religion freely and do not restrict rights by imposing religion or religious morality into the fray.
Said with respect but strong convictions of disagreement...
October 29, 2010 at 5:29pm
Not addressing this issue specifically, I wonder if people or the society in which they live can have "moral principles" without the injection of religion into the equation? If we all were to wake up one day and find that religion in all forms no longer existed, would our society deteriorate into moral decay?
October 29, 2010 at 5:37pm
Before you quote other people you better check your US history. Go back before 1960. As for the
distillery it depends on how you drink. Yes
over doing is bad. But over eating is against
the Bible also. So it is a personal choice. I do not drink or smoke. There are lots of other moral issues out there that need to be addressed.
October 29, 2010 at 7:12pm
Jeff, Very well put and I agree totally.
Kevin if you are asking a question, let me answer NO. Religion is a powerful force that many NEED for moral direction but to think man is an animal without that direction and to have such little faith in mankind would be sad and I believe an insult to mans creator.
How many members of THE church use tobacco?
How many grow tobacco?
How many promote its use?
How many work for people who sell tobacco?
How many make money selling tobacco?
How many people are addicted to tobacco today?
How many of our youth will be addicted today? (25 American children per hour)
How much does this cost and drain our society everyday? (4.5 million per HOUR)
How many will die from tobacco? (20 per hour)
October 29, 2010 at 7:48pm
Great question, may I comment?
“Moral principles” without religion, absolutely yes. Jefferson said that man possessed “Natural Rights”–unalienable and derived from “Natural Laws.” That thought came from the ancient philosophers who felt “man depended on reason alone for the conduct of his life.”
This law of nature or ability to reason, allowing man to sort out the good from the evil raises him above the level of animals. St. Thomas Aquinas said “to act deliberately in view of the consciously apprehended end raises him above the level of instinctive behavior.”
Aristotle argued that humans know or discover how to live together peaceably in a state of nature. Cicero added “There is in fact a true law–namely right reason–which is in accordance with nature, applies to all men and is unchangeable and eternal.”
Long before Judaism and Christianity arrived on the world stage, individual societies peacefully co-existed, individuals living together where adultery, murder, stealing, lying and other harmful behaviors were summarily dealt with–this then was a sort of governing based on natural rights and natural laws.
Would we deteriorate into moral decay without religion? Perhaps – but that can happen and has happened in societies were religion played a major role in the activies of that society.
Are religious beliefs held by individuals important–absolutely yes. Religion which sets moral standard for mankind eases the burden of the government to maintain a
Mr. Pitts, hope you had an opportunity to read the bulletin from the Church on the hill which come down on your side !00%.
October 29, 2010 at 8:24pm
Bryan: Thanks for having the conviction to stand up for your principles. I wish more people would show the character and integrity that you do. Keep standing for the right.
October 29, 2010 at 11:04pm
It's not like people are gonna be taking their Glenlivet to church with them. Although, I imagine some already do.
Non issue in my opinion and there is no reason why Cannon County should lose any more money to Rutherford Co.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Have a blessed day.
October 29, 2010 at 11:24pm
Maybe we need Fred Phelps to come back to town with new signs that say "GOD HATES JOBS."
October 30, 2010 at 6:49am
dailyreader worry about Murfreesboro because that is where you live. Stay out of Woodbury business because you are nothing more than a troublemaker. Stop trying to divide our citizens with your liberal non-sense.
I applaude your fight and I applaude your conviction. Keep the faith and knowing you as I do, I don't believe for one second you will stop fighting for what you believe in.
You are right concerning tobacco. It is in many ways the same due to the adverse health affects it has on people.
However, I don't know of a single case where someone has smoked a pack of cigarettes and then come home and beat their wife up because of the nictotine in their body.
I don't know of one case where someone has smoked a pack of cigarettes and had a wreck and killed someone because of the nictotine in their body.
There are millions of cases like that when alcohol is involved.
So comparing tobacco to alcohol is somewhat like comparing apples to oranges. Both are wrong and I believe both to be against what God would want you to do to you body. But, the immediate danger factor involved with alcohol is far worse than tobacco.
Respectfully to you, the Constitution does not mention "seperation of church and state" at any time either as most people believe it does.
If you study their own words, their own speeches, their own proclomations you will find the founding fathers believed very much in the idea of a religous and Christian nation. It is impossible to believe they did not want the U.S. government to be solely 100% free from religion.
Bryan's argument is not "removing any sacred trust" as you say, it is simply reminding you of the moral issue of voting for a product that is a known cause of death, crime, rape, murder, theft, etc.
His argument is a reminder that morality should play a part in everything we do.
If your morals allow you to vote for a product that has no other motive than to get people drunk, then exersise your right to vote for the manufactor and sales of liquor.
He just simply chooses not to and would like everyone to consider the ramifications alcohol invokes instead of focusing on the four jobs it might or might not create.
No one's religious rights are being trampled and no one is being denied anything by his argument other than a stiff drink.
October 30, 2010 at 9:07am
your point is invalid- it is not our job to decide which evil out weighs the other nor your right to pick a winner.
I would wager that as many fatalities on our highways are caused by lack of attention, fumbling with a smoke as alcohol and the coward wife beater is a coward and wife beater who just found his courage in a bottle.
The "immediate danger factor involved with alcohol" kill 85000 people a year while tobacco comes in first at 435,000. I just want to make sure you save us lost weak souls from all evils while you are on your soapbox.
Also please take this with all respect-I enjoy this site for news and information from the courier and to see the posted opinions from others--- not a place to debate or seek conversion on my ideas with people who are always "RIGHT" or have a need to correct the miss-informed masses. So please if I find a topic and a posted opinion of mine, you need not inject your OPINION to correct me. Your opinions our very strong and your facts very one-sided. I am neither nor will you convert me.
October 30, 2010 at 12:19pm
At the risk of being chastized for straying off the subject and commenting on someone else's statement, I submit this:
While we all agree that the phrase “separation of church and state” does not appear in the 1st Amendment, and without a doubt all would agree the Founding Fathers, were they to appear today in Woodbury, would be much perplexed, perhaps even dismayed and some perhaps elated to see how that separation of church and state has evolved.
We need to keep in mind when the 1st Amendment was ratified the “Congress shall” made its application to the government and its agents only. Madison wanted to include this amendment “ No state shall violate the equal rights of conscience...” He felt the greater danger came from the states and not the national government. States Righters prevailed and that amendment was not included in the final Bill Of Rights.
Helped on by the 14th Amendment we finally began to the process of “Incorporation”, the idea of bringing religious separation into state activities. Virginia, led by Jefferson and Madison had already accomplished much along those lines.
The doors opened and we saw church and state Supreme Court cases proliferate. Jehovah Witnesses had 23 alone. Epperson v. Arkansas, Edwards v. Aguillard, Engel v. Vitale–out went prayer in school, teaching biblical creationism and in came evolution–and those are just a very few that drove home the concept of “a wall of separation of church and state.”
The process has been evolutionary and as the make up of the Court changes that pendulum will swing back and forth and back and forth.
And I wouldn’t put too much stock in those who say the Founding Fathers were for the most part, Christians. Great though they are and we will never see the like again, they were flawed as all men were and are.
While some strongly opposed slavery, those opposed acquiesced and folded their cards when the final vote came. Slavery was protected by the government of the United States and the Supreme Court upheld that position.
Some local ministers state that George Washington and others were “Christian.”
Would they pass that test today in their church? A “Christian” who buys, sells, trades, whips, destroys families, even impregnates the young females, solely because they are a different color and all in the name of profit–all to maintain and enhance an aristocratic, elitist life style.
Liquor, same sex marriages, and even abortion should pale in the their sight of what these men did to their slaves and yet some want to call them Christians!
October 30, 2010 at 12:45pm
Rachel you are very opinionated and one sided as well and to think you aren't just proves the point.
We all are, and the majority who reads these blogs likes to express themselves by commenting on what is being said.
And for the record, I have no desire to "convert" you or anyone else. I have no desire to get on my "soapbox" and preach. I am simply interjecting my opinion on articles and comments that are posted. Nothing more and nothing less. I don't recall ever asking you if you liked them or not and I don't recall having to ask your permission to write them.
I don't always agree with you, but like I said before I do respect the idea that you have the best interests of Cannon County in mind when you write.
And as far as the tobacco vs. alcohol I told you below they both are bad for you. But, if you cannot see the immediate danger alcohol brings forth vs. the immediate danger tobacco brings forth then you have a serious problem.
Statistics are great and nice to look at, but once again you don't get pulled over at a roadblock so the officer can check to see if you are smoking.
They are looking for drunk drivers because the IMMEDIATE danger is greater. No one goes to court and pays thousands of dollars to stay out of jail because they got pulled over for their 3rd offense of smoking while driving.
And, lastly if you can't understand that alcohol and all that it entails is a greater risk than tobacco then I can give you the number of several parents who have lost children because of alcohol, or I can give you the number to AA and you can talk to the alcholics who have ruined their lives.
Get off your soapbox and come back down to reality.
October 30, 2010 at 4:30pm
Democratic canidate Mcwherter's family made their living selling beer just for the record and to those who are interested.
October 30, 2010 at 4:59pm
Doolittlerd77: Yes, I CAN compare the use of tobacoo to the abuse of alcohol! My wonderful father never beat me after smoking, he never cursed or abused me in anyway after smoking, but he DID leave me because of smoking, 10 years after he STOPPED! Tobacco use took the life of the best father our Lord ever put on this Earth!
October 30, 2010 at 7:33pm
tlerd77-I take it as a compliment you see me as "having a serious problem". I understand GIGO as I am sure you do, but still 6 will died from tobacco for every 1 alcohol death. Sorry but fact. And as much as you enjoy these conversations -ours is done--only a fool argues with fools!
October 31, 2010 at 6:22am
I am not advocating tobacco use. I don't smoke, I don't dip and I don't chew. I don't grow it and I make no money off of it.
I agree with all of you that tobacco use is a huge problem. I agree with all of you that tobacco kills people, ruins lives and causes a burden on the families and the taxpayers across this nation.
I agree with all of those things, but you guys (especially Rachel) are getting off the subject of the article and what this county is voting on next week.
The vote is about the manufactor of alcohol in Cannon County. Not whether or not we can grow tobacco.
The immediate danger with alcohol is 1000 times worse than tobacco. That is proven and 100% indisputable.
I am sorry people's lives are forever changed by the use of tabacco, but I ask you guys to talk to a member of MADD and see how their lives are forever changed by alcohol. I guarantee you their stories will forever change your attitude toward alcohol and its immediate effects.
Rachel you can call me a fool all day long because once again your opinion of me means nothing in any way. I think you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, because no one could be that simple or narrow minded to believe what you are writing.
Common sense should tell you alcohol use does more immediate destruction than tobacco use ever would. But, I did say you would need common sense to understand that and I can see know that is why you have such a hard time figuring it out.
October 31, 2010 at 6:41am
No I am not a member of the Baptist church. No I do not preach and no I don't care what you think of me.
And, I am not the one who is writing opinions about subjects on a website in a town that I don't live in or care about the people who do live here. That would be you!
If I make your life your life "miserable" because I refute your liberal garbage you try to spread then I am doing my job.
I was born here. I have lived here my whole life. I pay taxes here and I know the majority of the people here. I have raised my children here and I do my very best to try to make my community better by volunteering, raising money for our school systems, stopping to help a neighbor if they have a flat tire, securing thousands and thousands of dollars in grant money through the company I work for to help fund the Arts Center, the Senior Citizens Center, the Grammar Schools, the Dixie Youth Baseball fields, and the Cannon County Lions sports programs.
I have helped with the donation of musical instruments to help our kids have the opprotunity to expand thier minds. I have been a coach for the Dixie Youth, the Jr. Pro basketball league and I love this town and county more than most people who have lived here all of their life ever will.
That is why I have made it my goal to ensure the people of this community know that you dailyreader have only one goal which is to divide our community with your venom you spew.
I have a vested interest here. I bring solutions to the table and my goal is to conquer the people like you who simply want to destroy, divide and cause trouble.
Until you bring ANYTHING to the table other than your liberal nonsense, until you bring ANYTHING to the table to help, until you bring ANYTHING to the table that qualifies as a solution then my best advice to you is to crawl back in to your hole and shut up until you have something to offer that is worthwhile.
Any by the way, it is not speculation. You do live in Murfreesboro.
October 31, 2010 at 8:01am
And Jesus said "Be careful not to do your acts of righeousness before me, to be seen by them.......and ..."for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men..."
October 31, 2010 at 10:01am
Typical dailyreader response as usual.
What you once again fail to understand is I am not tooting my own horn. No one until today knew any of what I have done because I have never asked for anything in return. I never asked because I don't want anything or expect it.
I simply responded explaining the solutions I have offered because I was tired of your hogwash on why I was making life "miserable" for other people when that is clearly your goal and not mine.
dailyreader I ask you this question:
What have you done for Cannon County other than try to cause trouble and discord?
I expect that answer will keep you silent.
October 31, 2010 at 1:34pm
I really am saddened that the debate in this discussion now has gotten so far removed from the thrust of what I had written. Stop debating with tennis court "lobs" of irrelevant discourse and insults! My original thought was this should not be debated based on religious rules as this is a SECULAR action. If you are going to spout biblical verses to justify your argument then there is nothing to debate! I will make my decision based on other things as my convictions of Faith and Government are not compatible together.
Is the goal here to instill Christian values or nothing else? Is that it? Do you want some kind of religious state?!
I do not.
Either vote one way or another, but for those of you attempting to motivate people based on Christianity only, you will fail.
Argue that its good or bad economically or socially to the detriment or benefit of all - NOT because Jesus told you to... That's how the original proposal was presented. It was presented as a Governmental offering of a change of policy - The proposal was not presented in a place of worship. Keep Church and Country cleanly separated! This is how the proposal was presented - not because you heard it sponsored/unsupported through religion!
You must understand this is the fairest method for the general public as this in INCLUSIVE for ALL. Not everyone is a Christian, Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon... Etc.
We are a homogenous society and when you play the Christian card you exclude those who do not feel as you do on a decision that affects us all!
October 31, 2010 at 2:04pm
I do not find it offensive that someone is writing in the Courier who is not from here.
I resent that kind of thinking.
Just because you do not live here does not mean you do not have anything worthwhile to say...
(I do not agree with the thinking of, DailyReader... But this person has just as much right to his opinion as the next person... But do not be an agitator just to be mean-spirited... DailyReader, your discourse is offensive and does not add objective information.)
October 31, 2010 at 3:51pm
Lots of scripture on liquor but I did not see anyone address Paul’s suggestion to Timothy nor was there a mention of Jesus’ distillery operation at Cana.
Seems moderate alcohol consumption was encouraged and tolerated in biblical times, not just because of the bad water but to celebrate certain events such as weddings.
But no condemnation of those who supplied the libation.
All agree that excess consumption leads to serious problems.
Governor Candidate’s occupations:
Anyone know is beverages with an alcohol content are being sold at Pilot truck stop/stores?
Great sermon on the Hill this AM. Opened with thoughtful comments about liquor and then segued into a rather pointed message about Jesus’ subtleness, sometimes using some humour, in admonishing the Pharisees and their self righteousness. Nothing wrong with someone pricking that bubble of pomposity every now and then. Teaches us humility.
October 31, 2010 at 5:23pm
Jeff you are right. dailyreader does have the right to his opinion as much as anyone.
But you are also right when you say to dailyreader "your discourse is offensive and does not add objective information"
That has been my point all along. Nothing more, nothing less.
He has offered no solutions to any of the problems we face. He has done nothing but try to cause division and he does not bring anything positive to Cannon County or its citizens.
That is why I write what I write about him.
His opinion is just that, his opinion.
But, to bring nothing to the table but negativity to a conversation about an issue in a town where he doesn't have a vested interest in means his goal is to start trouble.
Back to the article above, I believe Bryan's intent was to show that we should all look at things from a moral standpoint in life. I did not take it as he was trying to force his views on anyone or his religion.
I do agree with him in that point. And to be honest, the bad outweighs the good. There might be 5 to 10 jobs if we are lucky that is created if this passes. And do you honestly think they are going to hire people inside this community when there are probably 20 people they know who want the jobs?
November 01, 2010 at 7:24am
JeffSchuler: You comments have been thoughtful and show much respect for all.
I wish you would please let me know what I have said that was offensive to you. If it was the question about someone's profession I will agree--I should not have indicated a denomination, it was awkwardly phrased and I apologize to all those of that faith.
If some of my comments have not treated properly the subject matter of the letter--that is true--but then I have much company when it comes to that.
I feel strongly that we should respect the right of women to make their own choice, I feel strongly that same sex couples should have the same civil rights as hetrosexual couples, I have felt all should mock the hypocrisy of politicians (both parties) who pander for votes and have said so, I don't feel Republicans have a special corner on their relationship to God or can boast of more dedication to the nation then Democrats, I don't believe preachers should be telling parisioners to vote Republican or Democrat but should stick to the business of saving souls, I think those who feel the schools and government should prop up their religious faiths---their faith is weak to begin with and they failed in having their church and home life to proper nourish and bolster that faith. I believe being an atheist or an agnostic is not a crime, no more than being a member of a religious sect found here in Woodbury. I endorsed the stimulus plan, the $250 for Part D users, the $250 for Social Security seniors and many other liberal Democrat programs.
For those positions I seen some very pointed comments being directed my way including one about my parents.
If I have failed to bring objective material to the table, I plead guity along with a multitude of others.
November 01, 2010 at 9:18am
A postscript to rd77:
Through another party I have vested interest in hundreds of acres here in the county, wheel taxes have been paid since CCHS was built way back when, grandchildren have graduated from WGS and CCHS, electric, water, telephones bills paid and continue to be paid, bought meat at Lehnings, and grocieries at Halls, had gravy and biscuits at Grandmas, played pool at Vernies and when the Estees ran Gray Eagle, bought hardware from Frank, had many sips of water from the spring on River Road along with a few visits farther on up to get a half-pint or so, autos and trucks from John Thomas and Wiley and Buddy did repairs on those (bought lumber from them later on), sipped Cokes with Martha and Bill, even attended alumni banquets in the old WHS building---and I have no right to speak up on subjects that concern this county?
November 01, 2010 at 11:35am
postsript to dailyreader:
In my opinion, just because you visit here and just because you bought a hamburger at Vernies back in 1969 and bought groceries at Lennings Mkt. and Halls in 1978 still does not give you the right to try and divide our community and offer no solutions to any of the liberal nonsense you spread.
I have said it several times. You bring no solutions to the table. You offer only your warped sense of reality.
When you start offering solutions to the problems this county faces and quit bashing everyone who does not have the same opinion as you then and only then do I think you should have the right to express yourself.
You who do nothing but complain and are as much of the problem as the people we have in office (both Democrat and Republican).
I know what I believe. I know what you believe. And at the end of the day neither of us are going to change. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't work together.
Stop being part of the problem and start working toward building a better community if you truly want to do good.
If you do that, then I might start respecting your "right" to express yourself.
Until then, I think you should express yourself somewhere else and quit trying to divide our citizens.
November 01, 2010 at 1:20pm
daily how will you survive without tlerd's respect?
November 01, 2010 at 1:35pm
VOTE YES for the Distillery!!!!!
Vote YES for the Distillery!!!!!
November 01, 2010 at 2:26pm
rachel, I am absolutely devastated, how will I ever get a good night's sleep without therd's respect. Oh, what with a long winter ahead, what can I do? Pray for me rachel, please pray for me.
November 01, 2010 at 3:17pm
I thought you quit reading my comments? Oh well, I guess you just can't help yourself.
dailyreader: Nice of you to envoke the power of prayer when it conveinences you.
Just wondering why a self proclaimed atheist would need prayer?
And trust me I care not what either you or rachel thinks of me, says about me or writes about me. Both of your opinions about me mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of life.
Keep on being a troublemaker, keep on bashing people, keep on calling me names and offering no solutions.
It makes you both look really, really smart! HA!
November 01, 2010 at 6:25pm
Well bottom line--me and cowgirl are IMMORAL and vote YES
November 02, 2010 at 9:25am
What is wrong with everyone! Just listen to yourselves.
November 08, 2010 at 6:58pm
Lol!!! Scare tactics. It got in so I guess deamons going to come out and choke you are lol lol.Stop