September 28, 2010 at 10:47am
why dont we just hand over the keys to the kingdom while we're at it
September 28, 2010 at 11:06am
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Gospel of Matthew, 7:15 - King James Version).
September 28, 2010 at 12:15pm
What claims have you "examined" and what facts have you "researched"? Maybe you should "research" somewhere besides NPR or other liberal news outlets.
Jesus - perfect, sinless, forgave enemies while they were killing him.
Muhammad - thief, killer, pedophile (by today's standard).
Please don't confuse them and say they're the same.
September 28, 2010 at 2:46pm
Sorry Klye, but I couldn’t agree with you less. By mourning for all those lives lost in the 9/11 sneak attack on the civilians of this country; we are reminded of the blind side we turn toward the world with our open and free way of life.
Remember, 9/11 was not the first and only attack on those towers by people identifying themselves as members of Islam. Therefore, that site obviously represents something negative to those members that was important to destroy and to allow an Islamic center at that site, could be interpreted by many as a symbolic flag over captured ground. It is all too easy to forget our venerability and to relax under the pretext of being the home of the “brave”. Being foolish isn’t part of the definition of being brave.
I would place the burden on the backs of the Islamic world to send a message that building anything representing Islam at that site that it should not happen. “Not that site, not at this time”. What is the point of an Islamic center at “Ground Zero”? If they wasn’t to honor the American lives lost there, let them contribute toward a memorial honoring the innocent lives and true American heroes gone forever.
We as Americans are not over it, nor should we be. I don’t recall the world of Islam unifying to condemn the 9/11 attacks, but, I do have recall of massive protests against the USA shortly after and I still carry the images in my head of a young American named Nick Berg having his head sliced from his body by Islamic radicals because he was an American in the wrong place at the wrong time. If Islam is so peaceful toward America and these are truly splinter groups, then let Islam step forward and condemn the attacks --- let Islam step forward and bring these groups to justice and let us all live in peace.
Our country does protect religious freedom, but even our tax codes are quick to take away religious standing when the pulpit is used for political agendas. If these Islamic centers are to be used to carry an anti America message, they should not be allowed. Again, let the Muslims that call America home pledge their allegiance to our country! Let the Muslims of the world condemn violence against America and our people – Then and only then can we even consider the attack of the terrorist to be those of splinter groups and not Islam as a whole.
If destroying American as we know it today is the agenda of any group, then it is obvious that that group is an enemy of our country. Don’t burn the symbols of my freedom, don’t attack my country and don’t try to use our very own Constitution as a tool to rub salt into our wounds.
September 28, 2010 at 4:01pm
Wow! Let's just get over the fact that they killed 3,000 innocent men, women, and children. Go hug a tree.
September 28, 2010 at 6:57pm
I'm pretty offended hearing you say "let's just get over 9/11!" I bet a lot of other reader's were also. We can't just get over it, nor should we! It was horrendous and so many innocent people were killed.
September 28, 2010 at 8:57pm
Suppose Kyle had not included this one phrase "Let’s get over it" but continued his thought with "It's time to move on in courage."
What would the comments have been?
Are the negatives posted because of that phrase or because of a fear/dislike/hatred of Islam?
The 1st Amendment gives all religious sects equal rights --are there those who want to deny these constitutional rights to Muslims?
Muslims have had a mosque in the same neighborhood for many years. There's another mosque two blocks away from the site. Muslims have been praying at the Pentagon, the other building hit on Sept. 11, for many years.
Nothing was said for months until the right wing decided to make it an issue.
So what we are seeing now the forthing of the masses worked up to a frenzy by right wing bloggers and right wing slanted news media who picked up the ball and ran with it. They have done an excellent job of bring out the worst in people, fearmongering and bigotry in all its finery.
Even among those who profess to be Christians!
September 28, 2010 at 11:10pm
I'm going to assume you were too young in 2001 to understand shock and horror of the Pearl Harbor of this generation. Otherwise I'd be really angry with you. Those of us who could only look on in sick helpless horror as fellow human beings were viciously murdered or chose to die by jumping seven hundred feet instead of by fire; will NEVER "Get Over It", nor should we. Islam is only touted as a religion of peace by infidels who willfully choose to be deceived or are incapable of learning from historic events. Islam is spread by force of arms and enforced by the sword, literally. To compare Islam with Christianity is only applicable if Christianity is meant to apply solely to the Roman Catholic Church. There were never any Protestant "Crusades" by force of arms. I'm going to assume you had no children nor close friends who were of draft age or old enough to volunteer to fight as I did when I watched symbols of American pride and ingenuity being shattered by foreign agents of hate. A young man who is no blood kin yet is close enough to our family to call me Uncle to my face was aboard the USS Bataan as a Marine on 9/11/01. He was on the ground at Bagram airbase once Afghanistan was liberated in 2002. Don't you EVER have the yellow-bellied GALL to ask me to "get over it" again. Not gonna happen, Democrat.
And yeah, that IS an insult from my point of view.
September 29, 2010 at 6:12am
The following in not in any way a defence of what Muslims terrorists did on 9/11 or on the other occasions where they have wantonly destroyed the lives of Americans and others.
These fanatics must be destroyed no matter where they live--Afghanistan, Pakistan, United States or elsewhere. No question--an unrelenting war on Muslim or any other terrorist sect.
But let us not try inflame and mislead people by making comments or statements that hold no truths.
Such as: "There were never any Protestant "Crusades" by force of arms."
I suppose one can conviently overlook the invasion and occupation of what is now known as the United States to say nothing of the Philippines or Cuba. And let us not forget the "crusade" to free Iraq from all those WMDs. And even today in Afghanistan--we went in to destroy those terrorists who were involved in the planning and execution of 9/11--this we did and pushed what was left into Pakistan and elsewhere and now we are "nation- building" nothing more, nothing less than a Crusade.
Untruths spread like wildfire but over time, most rational--note "rational" people can find out the truth but what is most distrubing is the racheting up the rhetoric when something like mosques for those who want to worship peacefully is mentioned. This is easy seen by these words: " Don't you EVER have the yellow-bellied GALL to ask me to "get over it" again. Not gonna happen, Democrat.
And yeah, that IS an insult from my point of view."
This is the same vemon filled rhetoric that one confronts when dicussing abortion or civil marriages for same sex couples and in years gone when some of us wanted Negroes to have the right to pursue the American Dream and before that when many fought and died so Negroes could start to live like humans rather than animals to be traded and worked and flogged.
This is America, let us be civil and respect each other and take the Commandments given to
us and as Adam and Jefferson said "Be just and do good."
September 29, 2010 at 6:23am
The problem, as I see it, is that our own leaders live in fear of the fundamentalist criminals, who are also followers of Islam. It wasn't but a few weeks ago a pastor in Florida had our government and military leaders in a panic over what might happen if he burned copies of the Koran. If there is nothing to fear from Muslims than fear itself, why would anyone worry about someone burning the Koran, or drawing derogatory pictures of the Prophet Muhammad, which has caused some cartoonists to receive death threats and go into hiding? Our leaders are telling us to act one way, while they do the opposite.
To dailyreader: We purchased the western half of what is now known as the United States.
September 29, 2010 at 7:28am
"We purchased the western half of what is now known as the United States"
Jefferson's purchase was the hammer that struck the death blows to the Native Americans who occupied that land long before the Europeans made the voyage across the Atlantic.
Our occupation consisted of bribing, destroying, in many instances, killing not only the men but women and children-- all those who claimed the land from the being.
And we did not send our army to Mexico City to give wine and cakes to the Mexican government--we want that land they claimed and the Native Americans that were, there in the beginning, paid the price. Manifest Destiny, I believe we called it but nothing less than a "crusade" from the day the first settlers landed on the coast--this land from sea to sea wull be ours.
Let us not try to rewrite history but accept the fact that these things happened and continue to happen.
September 29, 2010 at 8:46am
REMEMBER THE ALAMO
September 29, 2010 at 8:54am
Our forefathers fled from religious suppression in so much that other religions were not tolerated and the Church of England was the church of the state – Anyone trying to trace Irish heritage will quickly discover the difficulty with unrecorded marriages because they were not conducted in the Church of England. ---- That is the type of religious freedom our forefathers had in mind when drafting our Constitution. The freedom to select how to worship God, or not at all.
Our country, the collected United States of American has a foundation rooted in Christianity, but still thought to guarantee religious freedom. I doubt if any consideration was given toward the Islam and the Qu’ran. I doubt if any thought was given to a religion that would be used as a platform to attack our country.
We have repeatedly heard the threat of a Jihad against American. While Islam scholars claim that the term Jihad does not mean violent combat, the beginnings of Jihad are traced back to the words and actions of Muhammad and the Qu’ran.
The Qu’ran encourages the use of Jihad against non-Muslims. Sura 25, verse 52 states: “Therefore, do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with this, a great striving.” It was, therefore, the duty of all Muslims to strive against those who did not believe in Allah and took offensive action against Muslims.
So, if a country has it’s foundlings based upon Christianity and is predominantly Christian such as America, How in the world can a Muslim following the teachings of Muhammad be a loyal American, while “striving against Christianity” as instructed by Muhammad when Christianity is the foundation of this country?
September 29, 2010 at 1:53pm
"Our forefathers fled from religious suppression in so much that other religions were not tolerated and the Church of England was the church of the state"
Contrary to popular and and distorted beliefs, the earliest settlements, Roanoke, Jamestown and Chesapeake were all settlements based on pecuniary motives and had nothing to do with religious freedom. 1620 saw the first Puritans, "Separatists" or Pilgrims come ashore in the New England area.
This was followed by the settlements along the Carolina coast--patterned much have the East India operations of the British--money again was driving the settlements.
Much to the chagrin of those who think religious freedom was the prime mover, money making opportunities was just as much or perhaps, even more, the reason this nation exploded with various nationalities and religions over the years.
So our forefathers came to this land, some to seek a better life and opportunities to grow financially and others to seek the freedom to express their relationship to God.
It might be also noted --the Puritans tolerated no religious sect that differed from what they believed--even to putting to death those that tried to be different--not much religious freedom in that.
One might carry this one step forward and see that this narrowness of religious thinking as being a factor in the rationale of Madison, Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and others for making sure the Constitution contained that "wall of speration" --Jefferson's and Madison's words.
"foundlings based upon Christianity"--again--read--read -read--this nation was founded primarily on the philosphy found among those who wrote during the period of "The Enlightenment" --natural laws, natural rights that were formed soon after men began to walk upright and gather together for protection and a "Creator" or "God" or "Supreme Being" or "Providence" has been and will always be a fundamental force in these laws.
Agreed, the nation is a Christian nation--a great majority of Americans will tell you this--they are Christians in belief but that does not draw the conclusion that this nation was founded as a Christian nation by any stretch of the imagination.
September 29, 2010 at 2:08pm
Our own government stopped the showiong of the images of 9-11 within a year of the attacks. Their reasoning was that it was traumamtic to viewers and that there would be no healing if the images were displayed all the time. After the attack the unity of Americans was like that of the unity of the Americans after Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941. I had always advocated that we should be remiinded of the attrocities against us by a way of life (you can call it a religion if you like) where the followers are commanded to destroy us (US).
We live by our Bible and Islam lives by it's bible (Quran) and if they follow their Quran like they should everyone in Manhattan and Murfreesboro are already targets meant to be destroyed. Muhommad says that his followers can say what they like (lie) to their enemies if it further advances Islam.
To Blue, Amen Brother.
I will never forget the image of the second tower getting hit by the plane. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that second plane making it's turn toward the building. Peter Jennings of ABC was on live when he and I both said at the same time, "well, now we know it was no accident" I have seen a lot of death in my life time and I was speechless and brought to tears by that sight. People jumping away from the intense heat. It was so painful to watch.
Kyle, we should move ahead but we should never get over it. Remember the Alamo, Remember the Maine, Remember Pearl Harbor and Remember 9-11 the Twin Towers.
There are those who think and I kind of agreee that WWIII started in 1979 when they took our embassy in Iran. In 1983 a large vehicle packed with explosives drove into the US Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 people. Also in 1983 a large truck packed with 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Cops HQ in Beirut killing 241 US Servicemen. Two months later in Dec. 1983 another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait.
Sept. 1984 another loaded truck was driven through the gates in Beirut. Soon the terroism spreads to Europe and in 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant in Madrid that is frequented by servicemen. August 1985 a volkswagon loaded with explosives was driven in the Main Gate of a US Air Force Base in Rhiene-Main---22 dead. Fufty nine days later the Cruise Ship Achille Lauro is hijacked and we watch as a lone American in a wheelchair is singled out and executed.
The terroists then shift their tactics and attacked civilian airliners; TWA Flight 840 was bombed in April 1986 and then the most tragic bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259 people. One of those bombers were just sent home to die of cancer, back to Iran (a hero no doubt). Two CIA agents are killed in January 1993 as they walked into CIA Headwuarters in Langley Vrginia. The following month, February of 1993, a group of Terroists are arrested after they rented a van loaded with explosives into the underground parking garage if the World Trade Center, six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Nov. 1995 a car bomb explodes at a military copmplex in Riyadh Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and woman.
June of 1996 another truck bomb explodes on a military base in Daharan in Saudi, The Khobar Towers (a US Air Force Barracks is destroyed killing 19 and injuring 500. The Terrorists plan a simultaneous attack on two US Embassies,(Kenya and Tanzaniya they kill 224. The USS Cole was docked in the Port of Aden in Yemen, when a small craft came along side and exploded killing 17 US Naval Sailors. Attacking a US Naval War Ship is an Act of War. And then of course 9-11-2001.Over 3000 people were killed. This information came to me in an E-mail from a speech given by the Executive Officer of the Naval Air Station in Pensacola Florida, Captain Ouimette, I remeber all of the attacks and there is no reason to believe that any of this infomation is false. It would be kind of hard to forget all of this and move on. History is repeated when we choose to ignore it.
September 29, 2010 at 2:34pm
Dear bjam: What does allowing the Muslims to build an Islamic center have to do with “keys of the kingdom”?
Dear Blue: Good advice. And if you read further, you will find, “By their fruits you will know them.” The false prophets are those who teach fear. The true prophets teach love.
Dear Redeemed: (1) Among other sources, I have read some issues of “The Reader” and done some Internet research on Islam. There are too many bad arguments in the “The Reader” to address them all here. Which argument do you find persuasive? (2) Of course, there are differences between Christianity and Islam. But they have the same legal rights under our Constitution. You say that Jesus forgave those who killed him. Does he require less of us?
Dear Jim Gibbs: (1) I think it’s unfortunate that the Courier attached such a headline to my letter. When I said, “get over it,” I meant to get over the mourning and the fear. Please read it in context. (2) Nobody is proposing an Islamic center precisely on Ground Zero. The proposed center is two blocks away. The outrage is completely irrational, and it appears to be nothing more than an excuse for advancing bigotry. (3) The Muslims who want to build their Islamic centers are law-abiding U.S. citizens, not anti-Americans. Their people, too, were killed on 9/11. They, too, condemn Al Quaeda. They, too, support the U.S. troops in Afghanistan. They are our neighbors and brothers and sisters. (4) You are right that bravery is not the same as foolishness. We need strong defenses against criminals who attack us, regardless of their religion. (5) You say we shouldn’t use the Constitution to rub salt in anyone’s wounds. So, would you violate the constitutional freedom of religion in order to placate a phony, irrational outrage? I wouldn’t. SECOND POST: (6) I will not argue about the populace of the U.S. being predominantly Christian, but this country was not founded on Chistianity. Ours is purely a secular government, neutral as to religion. (7) You make too much of the Koran passage that you quoted out of context. Islam is not at war with Christianity. True, some Muslims in some countries protest against the United States. Some burn flags. Some get violent. But Islam in general is peaceful, loving and kind. If any U.S. citizen (Islamic or Christian) gets violent within the United States, we have laws and enforcement to contain such violence. (8) If you compare the Koran to the Bible, you will discover that the Bible is more violent by far. But the Christians generally interpret scripture in a peaceful manner. So do the Muslims.
Dear Bullpen: We have killed many times 3,000 in Iraq and Afghanistan. Isn’t your bloodlust satisfied yet?
Dear tngram: See the first item in my response to Jim Gibbs.
Dear dailyreader: Thank you for the insightful comments.
Dear wichitatwister: Please see the first item in my response to Jim Gibbs. Yes, we should remember 9/11 as often as we must to honor the dead, and to learn to be more vigilant. The unhealthy thing is to work ourselves into a perpetual state of mourning, or a perpetual state of fear.
Dear Kevin Halpern: Paul of Tarsus wrote that he felt no guilt about eating “unclean” meats. However, when he was with people who were offended by unclean meats, he refrained from eating them. I agree that those Muslims who get all uptight about a cartoon of Muhammad or the burning of a Koran are overly sensitive and irrational. Taking a lesson from Paul, though, we need to be compassionate about their weakness, and refrain from provoking them. Also, we can learn from their bad example: If we ourselves are being overly sensitive and irrational about anything (like protesting Islamic centers), we need to get over it.
Dear Rachel: The Ala-what? :o)
September 29, 2010 at 3:04pm
Dear Bob Stoetzel: I agree that we should always remember our history. I've already sent a request to the Courier to change the headline to my message. I did not write the headline, and it distorts my message. What we need to "get over" is the perpetual mourning and perpetual fear. Also, I thank you for accurately blaming the "terrorists" in your message. We must remember that the terrorists do not represent the majority of Muslims, who are generally peaceful, loving and kind. Please be careful in your interpretation of the Koran. Most Muslims do not take the violent passages so literally. Neither do Christians take the violent passages of the Bible literally. There are, lamentably, exceptions in both camps.
September 29, 2010 at 3:13pm
The headline may not present your message in the way you want it to be presented Kyle, but clearly the fact you want people to "get over" 9/11 is present in your letter because, if it were not for that pesky little 9/11 incident, there would be a lot less opposition to Islamic Centers.
September 29, 2010 at 3:43pm
Dear CannonCourier: My point is that we need to distinguish between law-abiding U.S. Citizens who want to build Islamic Centers, and terrorist criminals who attacked us on 9/11. It is irrational, unethical, and unchristian to punish all Muslims in order to nurse a grudge against some fringe terrorists.
September 29, 2010 at 4:11pm
"My point is that we need to distinguish between law-abiding U.S. Citizens who want to build Islamic Centers, and terrorist criminals who attacked us on 9/11."
How would you propose we do that? Even our military quite often has trouble distinguishing between law-abiding citizens and terrorist criminals in countries in which we are currently fighting terrorism, thus leading to the killing of innocent people. I am completely ready to accept the fact that a majority of Muslims are peaceful people and want to live in peace with non-Muslims, but I am not completely ready to accept the assertion that Islamic Centers do not have the potential of turning law-abiding citizens into terrorist criminals, especially when there is a history of evidence to the contrary. If you want to call that fear, fine, but in my opinion it is commonsense thinking.
September 29, 2010 at 5:25pm
Dear Kevin: Terrorist training in the U.S. is usually conducted in rural compounds, so as to avoid detection. How foolish it would be to build a nice Islamic center in plain view, and conduct terrorist training where everyone can see you! Where is your alleged evidence that Islamic centers have been used to train terrorists in the U.S.?
September 29, 2010 at 5:54pm
I do not think that mosques themselves are used as training centers. However, I do think that mosques are the main place that most who go on to attend terrorist training camps are radicalized.
Mosques' Terror Role:
September 30, 2010 at 1:27am
I would love for you to be right Kyle when you say the majority is peace loving, but I haven't seen any of the rest of the Muslim world try to stop the Terrorists.
September 30, 2010 at 5:52am
The Courier touched on what I believe is the basis of the resentment found across the land, here is the essence of the issue: "potential of turning law-abiding citizens into terrorist criminals" and Kyle is trying to point out, I believe, let us not live in fear of that "potential" whether it is fostered and nurtured in a mosque in the Boro or New York City, or in the mountains of Pakistan or Afghanistan, or in the basement of someone living in Houston Hills, but let us move forward with the courage and conviction that can only be found in a nation with freedoms like ours.
Very good article and some reasonably good questions asked by the Courier (is that pandering?)
September 30, 2010 at 6:37am
I prefer to view it as concern rather than fear. I may have to accept the notion that terrorism will always be a concern. I would/will be less concerned if and when our government, military and intelligence agencies do not feel it necessary to be overtly involved in taking steps to fight it, to the extent that our soldiers are dying.
September 30, 2010 at 8:17am
Someone please address the true root of this problem--jews hate muslims-muslims hate jews and this has been true for thousands of years. We Americans who "must" solve the worlds problems gave unlimited and total supported to jewish people not excluding in battle against the muslim. On that day Americans and jews became one in the muslims eyes.
we are a nation born of opportunity and freedom NOT RELIGION and especially a religion.
our freedom of religion right has been challenged abused since its existence and we have had no problem protecting that right.
September 30, 2010 at 9:33am
The Islamophobe argument seems to go something like this:
1. Some fringe Muslims are violent extremists (e.g. Al-Quaeda, Taliban).
2. Therefore, all Muslims are suspect.
3. Therefore, we should ban Islamic centers.
Here is the same basic argument:
1. Some fringe Christians are violent extremists (e.g. Ku Klux Klan, Christian Identity).
2. Therefore, all Christians are suspect.
3. Therefore, we should ban Christian churches.
If the argument against Christians is flawed, so is the argument against Islam, and for the same reasons. Surely, both arguments are wrong. Just as Christians give one another a (rebuttable) presumption of innocence, we should give our Muslim neighbors the same courtesy.
Yes, let's be watchful for signs of extremism and violence, but in the meantime, let's allow people to worship peacefully according to the dictates of their own conscience.
October 02, 2010 at 3:36pm
DailyReader; In your response about Protestant Crusades; the US occupation of the Phillipines and Cuba were about secular greed, not religion. The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were about national security, not religion. As for the genocide of Native Americans, I'm as distressed about that part of American history as anyone else.
As for hateful rhetoric, guilty as charged. I grew up speaking plainly and saw just as much hateful rhetoric from those who label themselves "progressives"; most particularly during the Bush 43 presidency, and note that
"hateful" speech is the only thing that gets through the condescension of people educated beyond their intelligence. The only thing that hacks me off more than lying is condescending and/or patronising politicians.
October 02, 2010 at 4:42pm
But wichita, everyone maintains we are a Christian nation--A crusade is a reform movement and if done by Christians then is it not a Christian Crusade? Did not Bush say God had spoken to him about Iraq and told him to invade? Perhaps those other presidents were talking to God also--just like Bus.
And one need not lower himself to the level of those who use hateful language, one should rise above that level unless one really wants to be on that same plane.
October 03, 2010 at 12:44am
Reader, In my lifetime I have conversed with a wide variety of individuals, from hookers who dropped out of the 8th grade after turning 16 to CEO's with MBA's. I tend to speak at whatever level gets the message across best at the time, can't seem to control it. (No I wasn't negotiating prices with the hooker, I was trying to keep her from passing out from an overdose of Reds just before she barfed down my leg.) Trying to "rise" above other's "levels" is counterproductive to effective communication.
I'd never refer to a hog farmer to his face as a "Sus Domesticus Caregiver" and I never refer to myself in the third person singular either. It's an automatic turnoff to me and most people I encounter regardless of education. Part of that "condescending and/or patronising" attitude I mentioned in my previous commentary. Which is easily detectable just reading your replies. And I still think it takes a lot of gall to take us to task about opposition to an inherently hostile ideology. I've read from the Quran and been appalled by it. And when it becomes a crime in this country to be a Christian, which it will, I hope there'll be enough evidence against me for an easy conviction. If I'm still around.
October 03, 2010 at 6:14am
"I tend to speak at whatever level gets the message across best at the time, can't seem to control it." and ""hateful" speech is the only thing that gets through "
Hard to imagine Jesus, our Savior and Redeemer, lowering himself to use the same hateful words used by the sinners, in an attempt to save them--I am sure He did not.
Maybe this is the new way of reaching out--start ranting and raving, even cursing if that is what the opposition is using---I suppose one must resort to those methods if one is so inclined--
October 03, 2010 at 5:57pm
Reader; How very odd. I seem to recall a scenario description of a righteously angry Jesus driving the moneychangers from the forecourt of the Temple of the time with a whip of three twisted cords and a quote of "generation of vipers" aimed at the pompous and self satisfied (read condescending and patronizing) of the day. Is that missing from your New Testament? I'm a good deal more inclined to listen to a witness for Christ, be it preacher or layman, who claims to be "just forgiven" instead of "perfected" or of having something special "revealed" to them. And what do you do with the instruction to "humble yourselves one to another"?
What DOES one do when one encounters that; one has to wonder.
October 04, 2010 at 8:55am
wichita--I doubt seriously that Jesus went thru the temple cursing and using gutter language when driving out the moneychangers--even if the moneychangers were cursing him continuously.
While one might read into John 2 an impression of an angry man beating and flogging, I doubt seriously that Jesus ever resorted to the ways of some angry people who flog and inflict grevious wounds on those who sin. Lowering himself to the levels of those who were sinning would have destroyed his whole way of life and what He wanted us to see in Christianity. Love for our fellowman and not ""hateful" speech-- the only thing that gets through."
Please read these comments:
Barnes: Notes on the Bible
A scourge - A whip.
Of small cords - This whip was made as an emblem of authority, and also for the purpose of driving from the temple the cattle which had been brought there for sale. There is no evidence that he used any violence to the men engaged in that unhallowed traffic. The original word implies that these "cords" were made of twisted "rushes" or "reeds" - probably the ancient material for making ropes.
1. Weymouth New Testament
So He plaited a whip of rushes, and drove all--both sheep and bullocks--out of the Temple.
October 04, 2010 at 3:48pm
Okay, I'll concede your point he wasn't out to inflict grevious harm nor did he resort to "cursing(the incident of the fig tree having a different definition of the word than the context you use) and gutter language". And we're obviously not going to agree to disagree. But we can agree I'm prone to being disagreeable. And I'm still going to try to venomously burst the bubble of pomposity when the opportunity arises. Kyle has the right to say his piece as preachy as he's able, and the common folk and we gutter snipes have the right to respond emotionally if we choose or verbosely and patronisingly, if "one" is so inclined. My "yellow bellied gall" and "Democrat-yeah that is an insult" remarks obviously stuck in your craw, which was the intent-it "got through"
in other words...sooo Chaos,Confusion,Irritation, my work here is done.
October 04, 2010 at 5:49pm
talk about religious fanatics
two "christians" can agree- and you all are going to understand a caring loving person of another faith ha
and you want your christian believes shoved down my children's throughs just because they are Americans--NO WAY
October 04, 2010 at 7:55pm
Calm your sphincter. I don't want anything crammed down your children's throats. It rankles me to be talked at and/or down to and I'd happily try to understand caring loving people of whatever faith. I didn't think Mike Huckabee(or any other member of the ministry profession) had any business running for President just for instance.
It does activate my contrary gene to hear
"submit or die" or "agree or burn in hell" or "agree or be labeled or silenced". Approach me as a peaceful co-existence equal and I'll listen. I may still disagree. Tell me that I can not that I should or must.
October 05, 2010 at 9:25am
"I tend to speak at whatever level get the message across at the time, cant seem to control it"
October 05, 2010 at 7:05pm
That's right. I want to speak as an equal, eye to eye, not as if I'm looking down my big hairy nose. I'm not always sucessful, apparently, but I am trying. I've been told to my face I can be VERY trying... I don't want to cram anything down someone's throat, Congress doesn't need the competition. I apologise if my reply offended you, Rachel.
October 06, 2010 at 10:16am
No problem and no offense taken--My point is two fold
We disagree within our own faith, much less comprehend the extensive hatred that lies between the jewish and muslim faiths. At this time for many reasons (some with much validity) the muslim sees very little difference between a jew and an American. Faith inspires strong emotions and emotions brew love or hatred. The more we can leave faith out of general societal discussions and decisions the better off we are.
Which brings me two my second point-Being American and of faith have no relationship with each other. They both stand on there own. Example- My children are intelligent, thoughtful individuals very capable of making their own life choices. So if some want religion in schools-GREAT- join a private school. BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE NO- AS IN NONE- RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS. As science proves that the earth is not the center of the universe, living things do evolve, dinosaurs did exist and on and on and on, gives no cause to try to bring the bible in as a text book. Your home and your church is a great place for you to practice your faith.
I disagree with many aspects of your religion as well as all religions of the world but, me and my children will fight to the death if need be to defend our rights, your rights and the rights of all.
October 07, 2010 at 9:41am